Kickstarter

Creator Jac Boe about 1 hour ago

http://napalmelfrebelscum.blogspot.co.nz/2013/05/mantic-kings-of-war-kickstarter-wave-2.html

a collection of all so-far available miniature pictures...

Creator Andrew Hayford about 5 hours ago

That being said, I actually kinda like the new mummies. Anyway....enough spam.

Creator Andrew Hayford about 5 hours ago

My biggest problem with these miniature KS's is definitely when they vary so much from concept. When you are in a normal production cycle, its not a big deal. But when you take people's money, I think you have a larger then usual responsibility to stick to the concepts as much as possible.

Creator Andrew Hayford about 6 hours ago

Does someone have pictures of the cat cavalry replacements? My google-fu seems weak.

Creator Matt Gilbert about 6 hours ago

I think you need to add the command options in the survey.

Creator Jac Boe about 7 hours ago

as far as I am aware of, they do not come with command options... thats true for bogof and for the ones received as part of your pledge-level...

Creator daquack about 7 hours ago

Can someone - or mantic confirm if any of the bogo's come with command sprues or not?

Creator Arthur K about 18 hours ago

@ Robert and Jac:
Thanks guys for let me know, I really did miss that part :P I am glad so glad I can swap those nuns into paladins :)

Creator Jac Boe about 18 hours ago

@ Arthur K...
jip... It was stating something like "if you have any questions or want to chance your previous order, just let us know in the comment section of the second survey.." although I belive what robert cartledge says is true as well...
anyway. waiting for more and better pictures (and the mentioned details on how many different heads / arms and so on are in the different kits..

Creator Robert Cartledge about 19 hours ago

@Arthur K - yes, Mantic have stated a few times that you'll be able to change and/or increase your order using the second survey. This also means if you increase your pledge to the relevant level you become eligble for the associated freebies.
Logic/Common sense says you won't be able to reduce your pledge, though I've not seen that confirmed.

Creator Arthur K about 20 hours ago

@Jac Boe: We can change our order in the 2nd survey? I thought it is only dealing with new order.

Creator scarletsquig about 23 hours ago

The primary issue with both the minis people aren't happy with on here and the marauders over on deadzone is easily fixed by making it a requirement for all sculptors seeking employment from Mantic to be able to match the concept art accurately. Being able to work to a brief is the most important skill for any creative professional to have.

The other issue lies with the restic material, I haven't had any problems myself (although it's a little bit expensive for infantry models) but have seen quite a few people not happy about that material, citing large mould lines that are hard to clean and warpage (which is easily fixed if you know how, but most people don't know how, I've had to explain the hot water bending process lots of times to various different people online... a lot of them just assumed the minis were ruined, especially people new to gaming or board gamers).

Have you considered maybe joining forces with some of the various new companies in the UK that are producing hard plastic sprues for the wargames market?

Here's one of them running a kickstarter right now, definitely check it out, local UK company with their own facilities down in Hampshire - they're making some quality stuff, far better than the goblins you got back from China anyway, they can even do clear plastic sprues, digital tooling, the works:

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1474140048/toys-for-your-toys-science-fiction-wargaming-acces…

Anyway, good luck with getting the rest of the sculpts made, I'm pretty happy with it all personally and I look forward to getting my Basileans on to the gaming table! :)

Creator Gallahad 1 day ago

I don't buy for a minute the "concept art is subject to change, so get over it" argument. If there were going to be radical departures from concept art (dwarf berserker to regular dwarf cavalry, "monstrous" cat cavalry to chorse cavalry, mummies to...skeletons with capes, troll to tooth pick leg trolls, etc.) it should have been clear from the beginning, or at least made clear to those who pre-ordered the product one year ago sometime during the design process. Advertising one product and then delivering something radically different is called a bait and switch.

These weren't small changes from concept art, which would be understandable, we have ended up with something that looks radically different from the concept art, and there was precisely zero communication about the changes with the people who helped fund the whole thing.

Gah, why am I even here? There is zero chance Mantic will change course now. Had we been made aware mid-stream we backers might have been able to have some influence over design choices, but that ship has long sailed, and lots of people are going to be stuck trying to figure out how to shorten the forearms on dozens of sisters, etc. etc. I hope future mantic kickstarters stick closer to advertised concept art, and wish them the best of luck.

Creator Jac Boe 1 day ago

puhh... so much bad blood here. if you are unsatisfied, you could always change your order (as indicated in the second survey...) maybe even a refund or a swap for something else in the range might be possible...

but I am still support the request of pictures (especially for the units, we haven't seen at all... the gargoyles for example...) I would also like to know on different options we would have with the different kits... so a pictures showing the bits would be perfect...

Creator Arthur K 1 day ago

While I trust that no money was use in the newer kickstarter it is hard to believe no other resource, man power or contracted sculptor, were draw away from this kickstarter. Anyway, we are at the end of the tunnel now and the wait wasn't outrageous, I just wish they show us the awesome end product :)

Creator Pejay 1 day ago

I think people are mostly just cranky because there hasn't been much in the way of pictures. It's very understandable. Their anxieties should be taken seriously as they represent possible return customers and could be useful for a growing company. I really like most of what I'm seeing from this KS, but I wish I could have saw it on this page. That does make me feel a little abandoned.

But I think everyone will be pretty positive once their miniatures arrive.

For anyone who hasn't seen pictures yet you can find some through Google:
Here's some glorious paladins: http://therenaissancegamer.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Basilean-Paladins.jpg

But I'm concerned about the Sisters http://therenaissancegamer.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Basilean-Sisters-with-Flails.jpg. The musician and the flag bearer seem to have weird wobbly arms. Those are presumably from the metal command upgrade kit - were they sized on the original pre-shrinkage mould or was it just a hiccup that couldn't be fixed before open day?

Creator Ed B 1 day ago

Nothing we pledged for (or al least very little) was a final version, it was all at a "concept" stage, some of which looked like they'd been done on the back of a fag packet in the pub. Mantic were taken by surprise at the success here and had to scramble to keep up. There were always going to be changes from the original rushed concepts.
Ok, some things got changed, and ok, there could have been more discussion about it. The problem with that is that for everyone who wants one thing there will be someone who wants the opposite so there will always be someone upset. I loved the dog/horse concept for brocks, more people liked the "badger(?)" so that's what we got... (I still bought some though!). For everyone who's dissapointed, someone else will be over the moon, and some even love sculpts they didn't expect to (trolls in my case).
I don't think anyone can claim to be hard done by in this KS, IIRC someone worked out for a $225 pledge you would be getting between $800 and $900 worth of miniatures (based on KS prices which are probably below RRP anyway). If it turns out you don't like what you pledged for, there's almost certainly someone out there who does. Swap them on the mantic forum, sell them, even if you sell them for 1/2 of the rrp you'll more than make your pledge back (probably with a healthy profit!), then spend it on something you do want.

I don't want to have to say "Suck it up, princess" but I will if I have to ;)

Creator Pejay 1 day ago

I thought we were getting pictures yesterday?

Oh well. I have hunted down some pictures and I'm pretty alright with the brock riders and cat cavalry (I didn't order any anyway). Those paladins look gorgeous, but no sword and shield option? Sure would be nice to get some sword 'n' board. Angels look fab I wish I'd got some more. I think everyone is just very sensitive right now over the other kickstarters (and its perfectly understandable why they would).

But. About those sisters. A couple of their arms are wonky and stretched.

All the other complaints seem to be style nitpicks but the two or three stretchy arms I spotted in pics should never have made it into the open day cabinet. I am giving Mantic the benefit of the doubt (they're just preview minis, these things happen) but still I'd like an official explanation about them. Will those arms be fixed by release?

Creator Arthur K 1 day ago

While I originally intended to use the big cat as Mournfang I am not too upset for the change.

Creator Arthur K 1 day ago

You should probably refer to Esso Petroleum Co Ltd v Commissioners of Customs and Excise [1976] 1 WLR 1, House of Lords, it dealt with whether free gift form part of the contract.

Creator ray bans 1 day ago

yes we are not shareholders
shareholders contract is to get a financial return on investment

the contract between a kickstarter backer and the group running it, is a promise to produce the product that w have agreed to fund.

it is not in the spirit of this contract with the backers to make fundamental changes in the product discussed.

more discussion or advice as to what was happening and why, or feedback about the options being decided upon could have been discussed, or done as a survey. (advantage of a survey being everyone gets a vote, and you then just add them up.

this is their company, they have the right to make decisions about it. but they did invite us in, when they offered to allow us to fund them.

I mention these thins in the hope they manage things better, as the changes are large and disappointing which is not a good combination

Creator Kieran Billings 1 day ago

although it would have been nice, yes. :)

Creator Kieran Billings 1 day ago

Just rebase them. You're getting 5 of them instead of three. sure they won't look like they completely fit on a monstrous cavalry base but your already not using GW minis anyway. And as far as I'm aware mantic are making this for the kings of war game not for warhammer. Ask for a refund if you don't want the new cavalry, and we aren't shareholders in this game so technically mantic don't need to consult us.

Creator Arthur K 2 days ago

I guess at some point in time GW realize that no matter what they did they still have to face the nerdrage but people will still give them money no matter how upset they are. That's why GW no longer give a shit to what their fan base said.

Creator daquack 2 days ago

thanks for update. looking forward to pictures to help me make decision.

Creator Fenriswulf 2 days ago

Agreed. I would prefer to wait for what was promised rather than what was decided for without our consultation. It shouldn't have taken Mantic long to ask questions for each of the changes we wanted, even with Dreadball and now Deadzone going full steam ahead. Your response, Mantic, smacks of saying "we're a lot better with feedback now, just check out our other kickstarters!" which ignores the fact that while that might be so, we're out the miniatures we pledged for because of how the style and sculpts have gone. We pledged on either artistic sketches of what the end models would look like, or descriptions in the case of the Cat Cavalry, and now we don't get anything like them. Trolls aren't in scale as they were in the sketches, the Brock is no longer ridden by a dwarf beserker, the mummies are completely different (a way to use a useless sculpt of Revenant's so I have heard), the Sisters changed radically, the cats are no longer monstrous, and so it goes on and on and on. If this was one or two sculpts, I'd give a lot more leeway. As it is, a lot of people such as myself have pledged quite a lot for this campaign, and now find the miniatures less desirable to completely useless for our needs, and some of the sculpts are so poor I wouldn't pay anything to own them (the ridden brock for example).

Coming back and saying "well sorry but that's what we did and it's too late now, if you want a kickstarter where we actually consult those who have pledged, why don't you check out our latest one?" is a fairly large slap in the face.

Creator daniel clark 2 days ago

I accept that in the end the money is being spent on the kings of war molds though to put in mildly I am impressed that simultaneously mantic managed to fund and do all the other kickstarters.
When you say the decision was reached .... did you actually ask the people who are paying for this to be possible what they thought and wanted? Personally I didn't get asked what I thought. Apparently I am not alone is making my decision to commit serious money based on the monstrous cavalry. Maybe you did not realise this was a key factor in people's decision making process?
While I am pleased for the other kickstarters that you have asked for and acted on feedback why given the fact that this kickstarter still has not finished did you not consult the backers at all? I understand that running a kickstarter is a complex and evolving tasks but it seems that you have put the lessons you have learned into the other kickstarters and seemed to have not done so in this one. I have held fire from commenting despite listening to the D6 generation podcasts that constantly reference this specific kickstarter. Now from a sales point of view i think that Mantic are seriously underestimating the lost sales that will result from a lack of some nice alternative monstrous cav. The Warhammer community is very ambivalent about the demi-griffs and I know that a large number of people were waiting to see what the cat cav looked like. The hero on the lion looks excellent and generated even more interest. A unit of 3 similar scale models would definitely have been a big seller and I personally know a couple of people that were looking for 9 or so each. Now it is upto Mantic how they want to position their models. However it is undeniable that this is not a popular move with some of the backers. I actually wish Mantic all the best and I am glad that the other kickstarters have gone so well - I have watched them go from strength to strength and the backers seem very satisfied with the more interactive process of their kickstarters.

Gallahad said "I would prefer they just be upfront and say "We are going to miss our shipping estimate by two months because we have been so busy running other kickstarters. This will let you see all of the sculpts you funded a year ago before we ask you for more money."

I echo that sentiment. i would prefer to wait for my monstrous cav.

Creator daquack 2 days ago

more pictures pleasE:)

Creator Robert Cartledge 2 days ago

@Daniel Clark the official models for the sisterhood lancers are around on the internet already, as with most of the Basilean models that are going to be 'revealed' in a few hours' time.

I'd also like to echo my dissapointment that the cat cavalry were changed to be horse sized down from the monstrous size originally planned. My pledge went from $175 to $225 as soon as I heard about the 'cat cav', a decision I would not have made in hindsight. Metal upgrade sprues for the Crossbowmen is a big disappointment as well (plastic I could have swallowed, resin or metal is disappointing) - I had thought that sort of thing would be phased out with newer releases, but the Goblins, Basileans & Ogres seem to have proven that hope to be false.

Creator Gallahad 3 days ago

I would have gone nuts for a unit mounted on cats the size of that lion. It bothers me that they deviated so much from the concept art shown (and not just with the cat cavalry), and we, the people who funded the whole thing, didn't hear a word about it. I mean we have seen a painted example of the chorse (cat+horse) cavalry, so it isn't exactly early on in the design process. Stringing out the previews just feels like a cheap ploy to cover the fact that they actually don't really have much to show at this point.

I would prefer they just be upfront and say "We are going to miss our shipping estimate by two months because we have been so busy running other kickstarters. This will let you see all of the sculpts you funded a year ago before we ask you for more money." I do get the sense that at least a part of this delay is due to Golem running behind, but they should at least have unpainted production models lying around for many of these units.

Creator Fenriswulf 3 days ago

Yeah, that's the hero I mentioned. A very nice figure, but it would have been great to have a unit which could go with him that was the same size. Imagine how cool all those lions would have looked.

Creator James Jones 3 days ago

@Fenriswulf, big man on cat: update 66.

Creator daquack 3 days ago

Anyone know a link to pictures of what the final ogres look like?

It is dissapointing the Cat Cavalry went from Monster to regular cavalry..but I didnt like the original art work that much for the giant cats..(not my thing in general as a not cat person) so i hadnt pledged for any.

really not so happy with the changes in the battlenuns....but I will withhold judgement until i see final scuplts on man of war and paladins (what most of my pledge focused on )

Creator Fenriswulf 3 days ago

I'd like a bit of an explanation for that from someone from Mantic. One of the reasons why I kicked in $250 for this kickstarter was because I wanted Monstrous Cat Cavalry, because, as Daniel Clark also put it, I hate the GW Demigryph Cavalry and I wanted something to use for them instead. I had originally had no pledge at all, then a smaller one, but with this news upped it to a high amount. Now, coming to when the miniatures are due to be shipping, I finally see pictures someone had taken, and the cat cavalry are now cat horses, and not monstrous sized at all. This is very very disappointing, as I had fully expected when they said monstrous size they'd stick to it. I put a lot of faith in Mantic, as I have been a big supporter of them, and thought that their sculpts and progression for miniatures would be getting better as they went along. Now I have seen pictures of a lot of the things due out for Kings of War, ehhhh not so much. So, I am now without a Monstrous Cat Cavalry unit (which would have paired wonderfully with the hero on the Lion, also not shown here yet, but on other websites), and have to hope to high heaven that the plastic Men-At-Arms turn out great otherwise I've spent $250 on miniatures I wouldn't have bought otherwise.

Mantic, I know you wanted to do well with Dreadball and also Deadzone, but by ignoring the KoW kickstarter you've really done yourself a disservice. Please get the rest of these photos sorted asap for us, stretching out and delaying each of the photo's is doing you more harm rather than showing them all sooner. We need time to see what is on offer and what our choices are going to be.

Creator Paul Thomas 3 days ago

@daniel Aye, they are being replaced by a unit called the "Sisterhood Lancers" who are ladies on smaller cats. Your pledge for these is doubled though. Given they are probably not what you want that may be more of a problem than a benefit though.

Creator daniel clark 3 days ago

One of the main reasons I went as high as I did was because i wanted a unit of super heavy cavalry to use in my GW empire army as I didn't like the GW chicken cav (demi griffins). Apparently the cat cavalry are being changed to normal sized cavalry. I say apparently because as far as i can see no announcement or discussion has taken place. Indeed the only source of facts are a few updated sketches and read someone saying on here that they will no longer being massive cats just horse sized. The fact that mantic have obviously used the money raised on this kickstarter to fund other projects is obvious to all. I actually like what mantic are doing with some of there other projects but once bitten twice shy.

Creator ray bans 4 days ago

and why are so many pictures in the updates broken?
like update #40

Creator ray bans 4 days ago

@Mantic, regarding Kickstarters, Sketch's etc
Please when you go from Sketch to Model/Green can you please show and share with the Kickstarters before it goes off to the mastermold.

If this is done, and the kickstarters that are backing, and funding the process.
Get the opportunity to comment on it, especially when there are significant variation from sketch to model. Then problems can be resolved before it goes to mastermold/print

I find on a lot of these KS's there is a vocal minority, but often they are saying what others want to say, but don't take the time to comment on.

Otherwise, there is a continued risk of backlash when something does not match up.

I will be particular not impressed if the Giant Cat Calvary is not what was expected.

Creator Ed B 4 days ago

I heard a rumour (on mantic forum I think) that there will be pics coming on the blog post tomorrow, but I can't say how true that is

Creator Richard Anderson 4 days ago

10 days till the deadline, hope they can get some time to throw an update with all the sculpts etc before then. would be a good way to milk a little extra cash out of me...

has anyone asked the question that if they already have all the options in the ogre/human army that they get the freebie command/chariot?

Creator Biofrost2001 4 days ago

Ive got a reply from Stewart but I m holding my reply on the second survey till I ve seen some pictures of the finished sculpts.

Creator Ed B 4 days ago

@ Kieran B and Christopher K
Thanks guys, not just me then, thought it might have been sonmething I said ;) . I'll leave it to the end of the week then give him a nudge, hopefully by then we'll have some pics to look at to help with decisions on extras.

Creator Beagle 5 days ago

+1 to Fenriswulf's comments

Creator Christopher Knudson 5 days ago

I got a reply from stewart with what I had pledged for BOGOF but it took a couple of days. I imagine between Open Day and getting a ton of mail from this and the DZ KS, and Ronnie sending most inquiries his way (at the seminars during Open Day). I sent another email about what freebies I qualified for due to my pledge levels but it looks like that has been answered here below. (basically, if your total pledge takes you over what ever level $100, $175, $225 you will qualify for the associated freebies. I think when all is said and done and I finish the survey I should qualify for 2 complete $225+ levels under 2 differnt pledge Accounts)

Creator Kieran Billings 5 days ago

I have had no reply either. Really wish that this INITIAL kickstarter would get some love. Dreadball has been out for ages!