Comments

1. 1. 

      Creator Matthew Yingling on March 6, 2012

      Looks like the link to the large image is dead.

   2. 

      Creator Me-me on February 25, 2012

      I would like to put in my vote for number fourteen of revision three.

   3. 

      Creator Tan Hong Yong on February 24, 2012

      In general I really like the middle right designs although I would love to have the names of the weapons on it to identify each weapon.

      Additionally, this is a suggestion that you have the number of rounds as energy/bullet/fuel symbols instead to save space? eg. A green bar with 4 partitions for 4 shots, etc.

      I think with the iconic look on many of SM's stuff, icons rather than bars fit the theme better as well.

   4. 

      Creator turkishproverb on February 21, 2012

      I like the bottom corner shot on the small gun, but it makes the big gun look to small. Hrm...

   5. 

      Creator telanthar on February 20, 2012

      I find #3 of Rev 3 the easiest to read/cleanest version

   6. 

      Creator Benjamin Farcot on February 20, 2012

      Somme more comments, I agree with replacing damage and rounds by a small artwork, it would save space, and make it much easily recognisable. I like the idea of having the automiss using some white/grey/black rather than red, but I won't be sure until I actually see it. Overall, I still think the layout in 1/14 is the best.

   7. 

      Creator Wolfshead on February 17, 2012

      My top 5, in order: 21, 14, 2, 3, 11. I do like Rds instead of R, but the rest of 21 is nicer.

   8. 

      Creator Nicholas Vitek on February 16, 2012

      @Mike:
      1) We are, just having feedback ahead of time helps and information helps working with graphic designers. That and there are only so many ways to put numbers on squares. Working with a graphic designer is more than just throwing the raw data at them and letting them work, it is collaboration, explanation, feedback, revisions, etc.
      2) Don't let the pledge number make it appear as if we have tons of money laying around. With 30k of shipping and then the art, graphic design, game design, manufacture, shipping from Germany, there is still a significant chunk coming out of my pocket.

      @Everyone: Thank you for the wonderful feedback, all 180ish responses. It'll help a lot as we do the equipment layout.

   9. 

      Creator Mike Comley on February 16, 2012

      And to clarify on my previous comment, it's rare that people actually know what they prefer to look at and use. Many companies know this, and that's why you end up with innovative designs that are entirely new, yet intuitive. Not saying the layout for a game card needs to be completely new and innovative; I only mean that it really takes an experienced, professional eye to figure out what will work best for people, because people most often won't make the best selection themselves.

   10. 

       Creator Mike Comley on February 16, 2012

       Okay, just a thought, but why don't you take some of that $ and hire a decent graphic artist to do your layouts and such? I can't say that I've been particularly enthusiastic about any of what you've shown. =/
       No offense intended, just being frank.

   11. 

       Creator Gregory Wood on February 16, 2012

       Oh yeah, the red does seem a bit misleading. I like the greyed out suggestion, on the condition that there be a high enough contrast that it can be seen at a glance.

       As a followup to the hex... I still find it hard to read... but maybe with a pie instead of a hex? Or a lighter color on the borders? Or leaving the numbers off? As it is, I just find the hex very visually "heavy", and any of those suggestions might make that more workable graphically.

   12. 

       Creator Alexis Darbon on February 16, 2012

       I like Gregory Wood's proposal for ammunition and damage icons, instead of letter (of course, the icons themselves can probably be more specific to the Schlockiverse: for ammunition, what about a magazine with a fiddly bit?).

       However, I'd like to add that, with the icons, it should be possible to replace the automiss bar with the automiss hex (or dice... ;-) ) and place it in-between both icons. This way, we would have all the game information represented in a graphic way while freeing some space for the art (thus answering at least part of Tammer Ghaly's concern).

       Moreover, it would to put them in the most logical order (as suggested by David Drake) : Name of the weapon, Check you have enough ammunition to fire, Fire, Do damage.

       Seeing all the comments on the automiss color, I agree that it may be better to have hit rolls in white over black and miss rolls in white over light grey (I'd go for dark grey, myself: easier to read but still giving the right "feeling"). The "inactive" look may be clearer, and red is, indeed, indicative of damage, not hits.

   13. 

       Creator Tammer Ghaly on February 15, 2012

       So I've noticed a lot of votes for #9, and just wanted to ask if people have been looking at the Gravy Gun examples only or if they are okay with the picture for the goober gun being halfway covered up by the automiss bar? I think it looks fine for the Gravy gun, but I wouldn't want it to cover half the picture or shrink the picture for a larger gun like the goober gun.

   14. 

       Creator Me-me on February 15, 2012

       RE: Updated.
       I vote for 14, 9, 3, 20, in that order.
       That is all.

   15. 

       Creator Warren Johnson on February 15, 2012

       I prefer #14
       Also, the name of the weapon is underlined, since that is the only one with that feature, was it a mistake? I rather like it, since it pops out at you when scanning a set of tokens.

       #9 is workable as well. I like the horizontal presentation of the information, it flows more naturally than vertical data mixed with horizontal.

       I totally agree with making the Automiss numbers greyed out instead of bright red. The red makes it look like something is supposed to happen.

   16. 

       Creator Adam Bell on February 15, 2012

       I would go with #9. I also agree... perhpas not red for automiss, perhaps grey shaded box?

   17. 

       Creator Chris Hillery on February 15, 2012

       About the red/white automiss numbers: Red seems like "boom", like something happened. If a couple numbers are highlighted in Red, it seems like those should be the ones that DO hit. So, IMHO, the Automiss numbers should not be red.

       But, I am assuming that numbers which are not Automiss are not necessarily *hits*. Therefore, probably the not-Automiss numbers should not be red either, as they are in revision 3 #14 (and as copied by Gregory), especially if you end up using a red icon for #dice as Gregory proposed.

       If it is at all possible, I would recommend making the Automiss numbers "greyed out", like an inactive menu option in a computer program. Have the non-Automiss numbers be boldly black on white. Or, if that can't be made clear enough, then have non-Automiss numbers be bold white on black, with the Automiss numbers white on medium grey. I think that more clearly expresses that the Automiss numbers are where nothing happens, and non-Automiss numbers are "active" but not necessarily "hits".

   18. 

       Creator Chris Hillery on February 15, 2012

       I agree with all of Gregory Wood's comments. Keeping the title and graphic together, and the actual stats together, makes a lot of sense. Having the automiss bar be a visual separator as in revision 3 #9 is a good idea, allowing the two main numeric stats to have the best spots: the two bottom corners.

       I also think Gregory's ideas of icons for Rounds and Dice is excellent. In fact, his proposed alternative image is my favorite of all of the ones I have seen, including my personal choice of font. I'm ambivalent about underlining the name of the item, but it's probably not necessary.

   19. 

       Creator David Drake on February 14, 2012

       From the original set, i liked the top left and bottom right tokens. From the update 3 set, i like #17. I like it because the very first thing you see on the token is the name. Once you've got a lot of experience with the game, that's all you're going to need to see to know what the item does. When you're still learning, i think it has a nice flow, going from Name, to the To Hit box, down to the damage/effect area. Now, if there's ever a time where it won't be 1-2, 3-4, 5-6, then the boxes on the left won't flow as well, at which point #15 makes more sense to me and is easier to follow.

       In my mind, the order of operations is this:
       -choose item
       -roll to hit
       -calculate effects.

       Having those items flow from one end of the token to the other makes it much easier to figure out what's next instead of having to visually jump around the token.

   20. 

       Creator Gregory Wood on February 14, 2012

       One additional thought, and hopefully this isn't entirely stupid: you could make the info slightly less crowded by removed the R/Rds and D if you made them more iconic. Perhaps the 6 is superimposed over a red burst/explosion, while the 3 is next to some bullets (or other appropriate icon). I threw together a quickie example:

       http://imgur.com/PuevL

   21. 

       Creator Gregory Wood on February 14, 2012

       My favorites in order: 14, 9 and 1.

       Reasoning:

       1. I like the separation of identifiers (name and graphic) from tactical information. Easier to find a particular tile and then focus on the details. The graphic clearly separates out the text of the name from the text in the details. Lastly, the bar separating out the name from graphic just looks slightly more pleasing to the eye.
       2. I prefer the Automiss being a horizontal bar as I find the 2x3 block and the hex not as easy to scan (and I find the hex ugly to boot). Horizontally, the bar creates a list-like view that can be read top to bottom whereas vertically it makes it more of a jumble of information.

       Additional comments:

       Because the automiss bar is easy to spot and parse I would suggest a variant of 14/1: move the 3R/6D to the bottom two corners (like 17). Visually it's easier to look at the bottom left and right of the tile to read those numbers whereas when they're in the middle of the tile I might waste a few MILLIseconds trying to locate that information.

       I don't like the missing white 3-6 on tile 21 because it loses the graphical depiction of inaccuracy. If I see mostly white, I know it's an accurate weapon, if it's mostly red it's very inaccurate; the difference between 1, 2 and 1, 2, 3 is much more apparent at a glance when the white numbers are included.

   22. 

       Creator Bob King on February 14, 2012

       I like the middle one of each set. Leaves room for longer pictures, and has all the info in a concise block. Second choice would be #2 (top center). However, that leaves off the flavor of each gun. The flavor does differentiate the items more, so I would suggest #1 (upper left) but swap the hit track to the bottom, with ammo and damage under the name.

       I like red for the automiss numbers. I think that works fine. Just roll the die and check the bar to see if it is a hit or miss and you are done :)

       I do agree that white on red seems a better idea. Alternately, you could leave the number off the automiss squares and just have numbers on the hits. I think a red block where the number should be does a decent job indicating a miss.

   23. 

       Creator Justin on February 14, 2012

       Ok, another version.
       I like #11 the best followed closely by #1
       On #18 it feels a really crowded because the Hit/Miss bar is right next to the image.
       On #21 I really don't like only having the Miss numbers. When glancing at the equipment tile I'm going to be looking at the relative positions of the hit squared and the miss squares. If only the miss squares are there that's going to be a lot harder, and will force me to read the tile instead of just glance at it. Doing that using the Hex pattern would work better.

       Also, white on looks a lot better than the black on red.

   24. 

       Creator Christopher Golden on February 14, 2012

       The top-left tile is one of the least messy ones while providing all possible pieces of information. This makes it my favorite...

       I don't like the middle-left one because it looks the most sloppy in layout

       Bottom-left would be great, but it cuts off some of the characters in "RDS" so that it just has "R"... Not so useful!

       I could live with most of the others.

   25. 

       Creator Benjamin Farcot on February 14, 2012

       Yeaye ! Third revision.

       Not much to add to what David said, layout #1, with modification he suggest on automiss font would be the best option for me. I also agree, red means bad thing like "I missed".

   26. 

       Creator Randall E. Winn on February 14, 2012

       Going by Row/Column
       1/1 This is my favorite; I like the Name at top, but it would be better to have the number rack below; this puts the identifying material at the top and the mechanics together at the bottom. After a while of playing, people will just remember the mechanics without looking. I suppose it's inevitable that, when you offer 9 choices, someone wants a 10th!
       1/2 Doesn't have name, which emphasizes that this is just a game piece, not a "real" gun.
       1/3 Words infringe on picture, emphasizing unreality
       2/1 Dislike. No name. Number rack at right looks like it's getting shot.
       2/2 If you have to go without name, then 2/2 or 2/3 are o.k.
       2/3 Better than 2/1 for the goober gun, since the Number rack isn't getting shot.
       3/1 Seems claustrophobic - the gun is almost surrounded and is obviously trying to blast its way out
       3/2 More crowder version of 2/2
       3/3 A decent alternative to 1/1
       --
       I wonder if Jakob Neilson does usability testing on game pieces!

   27. 

       Creator Caleb Huitt on February 13, 2012

       Oh, I just noticed that 4 and 11 are almost identical. Besides which numbers are shown as auto miss, is there any other difference between them? I also prefer the white on red to black on red for readability, at least in this computer-screen graphic.

   28. 

       Creator Caleb Huitt on February 13, 2012

       I like the new variations. On R3, I find that I'm not as inclined to desire the name at the bottom (although I appreciate having a few there for reference). I also like the idea about only showing the auto miss numbers, instead of all of them, that you have for #21, although I'm not sure I'd go with that one. For this version, I think I like #9 the best, closely followed by 14, 18, 11, and 2. I worry that the hex on 2 would cut into some art, but I imagine that can be worked around. I also like 3 for use with a thin-barrel gun, but I don't know how a plasgun, for example, would work with it.

       Thanks for continuing to update us on the progress, as well.

   29. 

       Creator David on February 13, 2012

       Forgot to mention that '1' is my preferred option overall, based on the size of the artwork and the layout style, but with the caveats above (number font, height of miss track, preference for 'Rds', etc).

   30. 

       Creator David on February 13, 2012

       Well, you can't please everyone - even some of the time!

       So, adding my feedback to the deafening chorus of mutually-inconsistent comments and suggestions:

       I like the underlined names of 1 and 14. I prefer the blocky font of 1 to the curvy font of 14 - in the titles. It looks odd, thought, that the numbers in the automiss track for 1 are curvy and I think that the blocky numbers from 2 and 19 should be used in 1 (you can see the '6' is a '6' with those, but they suit the blocky title font better). Also, the automiss track in 1 would look better at about half its current height, much like the linear horizontal tracks on many of the other sample options (3, 4, 9, 11, etc).

       I think the name at top, then image, then info layout is best although the format of 13 wouldn't be all that bad. Many games use 'R' for Range in these kinds of things, so I think the 'Rds' of 14 is a good idea (maybe even pair that with 'Dmg' for consistency, although 'D' is more universal in this area).

       Finally, on the colour discussion, I think it's intuitive to associate red with 'bad' things such as automisses (whether it's red on white, black on red, white on red, whatever), and not have red for 'good' things such as not missing. Swapping that really hurts my head.

       Hope this helps.

   31. 

       Creator Nathan Moore on February 13, 2012

       The ocd in me doesn't like the fact that the r in 3r is a different size the then D in 6D though :-)

   32. 

       Creator Nathan Moore on February 13, 2012

       3, 4 and 7

   33. 

       Creator Dirk Willden on February 13, 2012

       I like 19 best, but prefer the clean font of 21. I'm glad to see the white boxes around everything as you had in the email are gone.

   34. 

       Creator Joseph D Orlando IV on February 13, 2012

       My favorites are 14, 15/7, and 3.

       I dislike layouts without the weapon name, but you fixed this in R3.
       I do not care for the 2x3 automiss layout.
       The hexagon is OK, and it looks best when it nests with the artwork, as in #2 or #6.

       How do you track how much ammo remains? If you could replace the "3R" with something more symbolic, that might make it cleaner.

   35. 

       Creator Alexis Darbon on February 13, 2012

       From the third revision, I'd say (in order of preference) numbers 2, 14 and 1.

       For #1, I agree with Tammer Ghaly: I can see no reason why the automiss bar should have this size.

       I also agree with... someone (sorry, can't find your post right now) about the red/white squares: the red ones are better used for effective rolls than for automiss... (as in #14). And the white font is definitely best over a red background. (perhaps you could use a completely reversed color scheme: automisses in red on white, valid rolls in white on red)

       I have a slight preference for an underlined name, but it's not a big deal.

       And I still think two dice could be an interesting alternative to the hex. :-)

   36. 

       Creator Tammer Ghaly on February 13, 2012

       Revision 3: I think I have now changed my mind about the 2x3 box. I am not crazy about it anymore. I don't like the underlined gun name. I also like the white font over the red blocks. The hexes look much better now. I prefer the name at the top of the tile with as large an image as possible. I think I would have to say that either #2 or #3 are my favorite. I just love the hex, and I like that there is a lot of room for the gun graphic. #1 also looks good, but I wish the automiss boxes were the same height as the others. I don't see why they need to be twice as tall. #21 is also not bad either. It simplifies the tile by only putting the numbers that actually automiss on it. I wouldn't mind seeing the change in font color for the damage and duration numbers either. I think it could help draw the eye to those elements on the tile, but it is not that necessary.

   37. 

       Creator Mike Foster on February 13, 2012

       #1r3 still gets my vote, nice and clean looking on both

   38. 

       Creator Chris Sanner on February 13, 2012

       #4, I think? (on revision 3)

   39. 

       Creator Jim Goleski on February 13, 2012

       I still like the top left, or #1, best for both types of image.

   40. 

       Creator Nicholas Vitek on February 13, 2012

       @Wei
       I fully understand all that. Tat is why I asked for feedback on what people prefer and why they prefer it. Additional feedback regarding how people view the different options, the aspects of te design they dislike and the parts they like are just as useful as the massive amounts of time we've spent on the game design portion,
       If everyone hates x portion of a design, and it doesn't add to the usability, it shouldn't be included.

       With that said, the majority lean towards on design already and that is based off of the design that is most usable based on extensive Playtesting.

   41. 

       Creator Wei-Hwa Huang on February 13, 2012

       Hello Nick,

       Short answer: Of the nine options, I prefer the one in the upper-left the most.

       Medium answer: I think having a name is important, because players are generally going to want to describe the tile and without a name, you'll find them saying things like "the box with two orange blobs" and generally leading to more miscommunication and problems when players from different gaming groups get together. Since most equipment is probably long instead of square, having horizontal boxes is probably best. The upper-left fulfills these conditions the most, but the middle image is superior in that the relevant information about gameplay is in one location on the tile -- the bottom. A hybrid between the upper-left and the middle, where the duration is underneath the image like in the middle but has a title like the upper-left, would be better than any of those -- and put the automiss chart at the bottom, so that a player could spread a bunch of tiles vertically and quickly be able to tell which ones miss.

       Long answer: Asking for visual feedback from a large poll of a single aspect of design for your game is a bad, bad, bad, BAD idea. The responses you are going to get are all going to be based on people who are just looking at a single item and who are voting based on how that single item looks (including mine above). But what these responses will all miss is how the design aspects fit in with the actual gameplay. Unless a voter has ACTUALLY PLAYED the game, they have no way of evaluating what is important and what is not important on the game pieces. Maybe, in your game, it is not important that we know what the name of the chit is, since we'll never have to look for it. Maybe, in your game, it is very very important to stack a bunch of chits side-by-side and be able to instantly know which ones are usable for three rounds. Maybe, if auto-miss is so important, you should consider putting more than just numbers on the dice, but also have adjunct icons that show which location on the tiles would match the number you just rolled. The point is, without playing the game, WE DON'T KNOW. Asking us to pick one, we're going to pick what looks best, and if you listen to us, you will end up choosing what looks best instead of what PLAYS best. (For a very sad example of this, check out the game of Phoenicia, published by JKLM games. The design on the cards is very artful and individual cards look very nice, but during gameplay, it is difficult to get the information you need on cards across the table and the icons do a poor job of reflecting the in-game use of the components.) Design by democracy is nice and all, but people can only vote based on what they know.

       My background -- I did the original graphic design for the prototype of Race for the Galaxy, a science-fiction-based strategy card game. During the design process we went through dozens of iterations, knowing that we needed to make graphic design choices that needed to both allow new players to have a reasonable chance of understanding the game, while allowing for ease of use for experienced players. We then had to work with the professional graphic designer and artists to make sure that most of our design concepts survived the transition to high-production value artwork. We had to make a lot of compromises and not everyone was satisfied, but I do think we ended up with a product that balanced most of our objectives.

   42. 

       Creator Nicholas Vitek on February 13, 2012

       Also, here is the exact same layouts using square art:
       http://www.livingworldsgames.com/Files/UpdatedSchlockEquipmentCountersRev3SA.jpg

   43. 

       Creator Nicholas Vitek on February 13, 2012

       http://www.livingworldsgames.com/Files/UpdatedSchlockEquipmentCountersRev3.jpg

   44. 

       Creator Nicholas Vitek on February 13, 2012

       Please be aware, I've uploaded Revision 3 (Link is in the Update Post and also below here in this comment). Revision 3 takes a ton of suggestions and introduces a lot of brainstorming / concept attempts.

       I have added reference numbers for ease of commenting (1-21).

   45. 

       Creator Nicholas Vitek on February 13, 2012

       Apologies: Was out sick this weekend with Flu like symptoms.
       I'm reading all the comments since my last post and will have a number of updated templates shortly:
       Information to Keep in Mind:
       1) We can only use the front of the tile. The back has the Equipment symbol on it so that equipment may be randomized in a pile, or hidden for future scenarios.
       2) The tiles are 1" x 1", but we need a 3mm inner bleed to take into account miscuts. The gray backing square is the full size of the tile, the imaginary square that the information is sitting in is what we have to play with. One or two of the templates may have color that goes all the way to the edge of the gray square, but none will have any information outside of the 0.75" x 0.75" imaginary square.

       3) Automiss boxes absolutely need numbers to make it easy to read at a glance. It would be a pain with Automiss numbers of 2 and 4 to easily make them out without numbers.

       Jim's example looks nice, but it would need the AM numbers and the Duration / Damage codes would need to be bigger as at 1", they may be too small.

   46. 

       Creator David Beck-Mac Neil on February 13, 2012

       top left is my prefrence because I feel it has the best combination of artwork space, easy readability and still has the name of the item. It makes a game more accesible whenever everything is neatly labelled.

   47. 

       Creator Michael Z. Williamson on February 13, 2012

       the gun definitely needs named on the tile. Otherwise, I think I could get used to any of them.

       Mike

   48. 

       Creator Terry Bayne on February 13, 2012

       I like #1 the best (top/left in the grid). Name is important. Though if you do a #5 layout + Name at the top, that would work very well.

   49. 

       Creator Brian Dirk on February 13, 2012

       Name is absolutely important. I say the Top left (would be cell A1 in a spreadsheet). It seems, like the best compromise between art, name, and the stats.

   50. 

       Creator Benjamin Farcot on February 13, 2012

       Wha, updates on the layout !

       First thing first, I agree with the general comments saying, the name is important (so you can shout it loud at your opponant and wake up the whole neighborhood )... hey, that's great, all the new suggested layouts have names :-D

       Like I said before, having all the relevant information in the same location makes it easier to read, so no surprise, the first one comes out as my favorite one. The fifth could be a good one as well, but having the automiss bar at the bottom looks a lot better.

       A few other notes :
       -Gun pointing to the left doesn't look right, feels like I'm going to shoot myself.
       -Bended automiss bar is just terrible (the bad end of terrible).
       -2x3 automiss block... is to much a block, feels like it's taking all the available space which would better be occupied by the artwork.
       -I like the hex, but it makes reading the automiss much harder.